watch now! detail...
[♪...] [♪..., projector clicking slowly... speeds up...] >> werner herzog: reverend, uh, you're on, on duty today. can you think, just think about the man whom you are going to encounter in an hour from now, less than an hour from now.
>> i really am going there without any expectations. i'm going there to experience what god has prepared for me, for him, for all of those involved, and i don't preconceive anything. not today. i will let that happen as it
occurs, as time gets there. we have a loving, caring, forgiving, merciful god, and in time of joy and in time of need, in time of trial or tribulation, god is always there for us. i wanna make that presence to them. >> herzog: and technically, when
he is, uh, led to the gurney, what is your duty then? >> after everything is completed, uh, as far as the preparation, then i walk over and i stand as he has allowed me to stand. i always ask permission to be able to stand at his feet and
hold his ankle, and i move toward that position and i place my hand on his ankle and then that's what, what i do... until death occurs. >> herzog: and if there is no family interested in taking care of the body, the condemned men would end up right behind you?
>> yes, they end up here at the state cemetery, uh, and they're buried by the state. no names on the crosses, only numbers. [birds chirping] >> herzog: why does god allow, uh, capital punishment? >> i don't know the answer.
i believe that there's always a purpose why god allows things to happen. god has created so many things in this world. i play golf sometimes. i love to be on the golf course, because one thing i do, i put my phone on a silent mode.
i go out there sometimes by myself with no distractions, and i can see the beautiful grass. i can see the squirrels, from time to time, running. sometimes the deer are running. sometimes i look across the golf course, uh, and i see a cow or
a horse and, and i, and i stop and i acknowledge life, life. the things that god has created. >> herzog: please describe an encounter with a squirrel. >> [chuckles] an encounter with a squirrel-- i was driving the golf cart, and i was on the gol-- on the cart path
and i saw two squirrels, uh, they were chasing each other. and as i was getting closer, they were running across the cart path and i put on my brakes and they stopped in the middle of the cart path and looked at me, and i said, "how about this? if i wouldn't have stopped,
i could have run over one of these squirrels. their life would have ended." and that reminds me... [emotionally] of the many people that i have been with in their last breath of life, and due to bad choices and mistakes in their life, they, their life is
taken away in that moment. so life is precious, whether it's a squirrel, or a human being. so i will sometimes meditate on that experience. make a little noise, and the squirrels will take off and continue their life,
but i cannot do that... for someone on the gurney... i cannot stop the process... for them... but i wish i could. [exhales deeply...] [♪..., no voices] >> herzog: good, yeah. you are not wired yet, so we
have to wire you first, yeah. ...michael perry, now from all of us, the whole team here, we would like to offer our condolences. your father passed away. >> o.k., on the 10th. my dad died 13 days ago. >> 13 days ago on this--
>> yeah, on june 10th. >> but you will die or you are scheduled for execution... >> right. >> in only eight days. >> yes, sir. >> how are you doing? >> you know, uh, you know, i'm a christian, so, you know,
i believe that, you know, paradise awaits one way or the other, so i tell people all the time i'm either going home or home, so. i'm either going home to the world or home to god, so i, you know, as the days get closer, i can feel the pressure
on my shoulders. uh, they call it clinical depression, where i just start having less motivation to do things, less energy. um, you get frustrated at the, at the system. how can they not see, you know, my situation is wrong?
uh, you know, i, i, i used to write all the time and have a lot of energy, and i just don't have it anymore. i just feel like i've been beaten down. >> i have the feeling that destiny, uh, in a way, has dealt you a very bad deck
of cards. it does not exonerate you, and, and when i talk to you, it does not necessarily mean that i have to like you. but i respect you and you are a human being, and i think human beings should not be executed. >> mm-hmm.
>> as simply as that. >> right. >> herzog: lieutenant, uh, this looks idyllic and safe. >> well, and, and you would think that. this is a gated community. obviously the houses that are out here are, uh, uh, very large
houses, very expensive houses, and you would think that this is, this is a very quiet area, and, and you would, uh, i guess associate that with security. uh, but this house right here is actually the house where sandra stotler was murdered. this is where michael perry
and jason burkett, uh, parked out on the street and went in and, and murdered her. at the time that we found her, she was actually baking cookies, and there was evidence of that. there was, uh, there was cookies out, there was cookie dough out, uh, so she was in the process
of that when she was killed. >> herzog: but, apparently the first, uh, plan was not murder. >> well, and that was something that we were told, uh, that initially the, the boys were all-- when i say boys, uh, michael perry, jason burkett, adam stotler and jeremy
richardson-- they were acquaintances through, you know, some, uh, mutual friends. they weren't really friends themselves, but they, they were acquaintances, and, uh, what, uh, we were told was is that they came here with the intention of, uh, trying to get
adam stotler to allow them to stay the night by telling them they didn't have a place to stay, and, uh, they were going to try to get the keys to the car and steal it. that's what they were after was the red camaro that was in the garage.
upon going to the door and talking to the mother, and she said that they were out, the boys were out, and, uh, so they left, and that's when their plan changed, that they were just going to kill her and take the car. uh, so they went back up to the
door, and the garage was open and the door going into the house was open. uh, michael perry, by his own admission, entered that garage door and went into the laundry room at the time that jason burkett knocked on the front door, and as their truck was
out here. he told them that the truck wouldn't start and they needed to call someone to come, uh, and assist them. so she let him in the house to use the telephone, and while he was doing that, michael perry stepped out of the laundry room
and knocked on the back garage door which made her come and answer it, and he stepped out from the laundry room from behind her, and that's when he shot her. the actual garage door itself was open when our deputies arrived on the scene.
hall: the master bedroom, which is in the back part of the house behind the garage over here, uh, they went in and they took the top bedding, the blanket and the, uh, the top sheet, and that's what they wrapped her in. they brought her out, put her in the truck, and they drove her
out to crater lake to dispose of her body. >> herzog: and how does it happen? was it drugs...? >> you know, i don't know that there was ever any direct evidence as far as, uh, you know, drugs relating particularly to this case.
i mean, honestly, it was just, you know, they had a car. you know, this lady owned a car that they wanted, so, uh, you know, it was, unfortunately, you know, people died for a theft. other than it being dark, this is, uh, pretty much the way it was, uh, that night when we
came out here. you'll see all kinds of debris and trash here, as i said. this is, uh, was, uh, was pretty commonly used for a dumping ground. uh, they've pulled lots of vehicles out of, out of crater lake.
we've had actually a few other, uh, bodies that we've, that we've gotten out of crater lake. this is crater lake here. uh, this little area right here, this is where the tire treads in the, in the dirt was actually here. at the time that they first came
down here, they actually backed up to that and tried to slam on their brakes, hoping to eject the body in the water and that didn't work. so, again, that was just something that, that we heard. i, i don't know that that's actually what happened.
but you could tell from, uh, there wasn't any distinct tire wear in the ground. you could just tell that a tire, tires had been spinning there, so... so, it seemed to fit the story. but they ended up getting the body and carrying it out here
and it was just dropped in the water. we didn't know when we processed the scene here and when we processed sandra stotler's residence, we still did not know that we had any other victims other than her. this is the gated community of
highland ranch. inside those gates is the house where sandra stotler was murdered. when michael perry and jason burkett came back here to get the camaro that they were after, these gates were shut and locked.
so they, they didn't have access to it, so they waited around and parked until adam stotler and jeremy richardson returned home. and that's when they got them to come out in the woods with them and murdered them so that they could get, basically the clicker to come back and get access in,
you know, into this gate so that they could go back to the house and take the camaro. >> herzog: so only because they didn't have the code here and it was closed at night, two more young people had to die. >> yes, sir. that's correct. >> herzog: lieutenant,
jason burkett and michael perry bragged about what they had done? how clear evidence was that? >> uh, well, because it came from multiple people-- it wasn't just one-- we got reports from several people from the different hangouts that they had
said that they had killed people. that's how they got the vehicles. it was pretty convincing. i mean, we believed it, although, again, we didn't have evidence that we had other bodies at the time.
>> only after perry confessed, he pointed you to the location of the two young boys? >> woman: as soon as i found out my mother, her body had been found, that whole week is just a blur. i was watching the news, it was monday morning and i saw
helicopters flying over ronny's truck stop here. well, we live a mile. and i had a glimmer of hope. i said, "adam got away; he's found his way home." because that's the exit you'd get off to come to my house. so i told my husband, i said,
"get in the car, we're going down there." 'cause they showed the crime scene, the helicopters, there, my brother's car was there on the news. so we went up to ronny's truck stop and, um, i saw all that stuff on the car and i'm like,
"oh, that's not adam's car. he doesn't have all that stuff on there." >> herzog: "stuff" meaning? >> these stickers. >> "gauge"? >> yeah. >> "ab"? >> yeah, i saw that stuff. i was like, "oh, that's not his car."
>> you know, and then i looked at the license plate. the car was riddled with bullets and, um, they had just chased them down and caught them at the apartment complex. and i was kind of trailing behind them and they left to go to the hospital and they told
me-- i was like, "please tell me." 'cause adam had been missing now since wednesday and it was now monday. and i said, "please tell me, was adam with them?" and they said, "adam got shot and they took him to the
hospital." now, michael perry is still saying he's adam. he got out of jail, he bonded out of jail. >> herzog: perry just had his i.d. you believed... >> i believed he was alive--
>> your brother was safe, only wounded because you were told adam was safe-- >> was shot. >> and shot, but in hospital. >> and i, you know, i was like... [sighs] thank god. so i started calling the
hospitals trying to figure out which hospital he was at and i described him and she's like-- i finally got a nurse who would talk to me, and she's like. "that's not the kid that's here, ma'am." >> but you had hopes... uh, i mean, substantial hopes that
your brother adam was wounded but safe. >> yes. >> alive. >> yeah. >> and all of a sudden? >> my world was ripped out from underneath me. everyone was gone. i called lieutenant davidson, and, um, he told me to come down
to the police station and i told him, "i'm watching you on tv right now, just tell me if that's adam." and he said, "i really would like you to come down to the station." and i said, "just tell me." and he said, "yeah, it's adam."
he said, "it's adam." and my knees gave out. and i never knew that your knees really went weak, you know, but that saying is true, "weak in the knees." my knees went weak, and i fell to the floor. >> lt. hall: this is
lindsey lane. this is where we were directed, on this road, by michael perry in his confession that we would find two additional bodies of adam stotler and jeremy richardson. well, we came down this road and then we split up.
we went to the end of the road and we actually walked back this way and, uh, discovered adam's body. they lured them into this area by telling them that there was a mutual friend of theirs that had gotten hurt while they were hunting.
this house obviously was not here at the time. you can see as this is coming out how it's coming around, so it's gonna be somewhere about, somewhere in that concrete is gonna be about where his body was discovered. once we actually processed the
scene and we moved the body, once we moved the body, there was a cigarette butt under it, which we collected, and, uh, there was also another cigarette butt close by, but the one that was under his body, once we submitted it to the state lab for dna, it had michael perry's
dna on it. >> herzog: which means the body had fallen... >> had fallen on the cigarette after it was already discarded on the ground. the other body was from where we actually found his body, it was so dense with
trees, we couldn't even get into it. i don't know how he got into it. we couldn't hardly even get into without taking machetes and cutting back some of the brush. jeremy, he ran for some distance while he was being shot at. i don't know if it was 'cause he
heard the gunshots here and got startled or if jason pointed the shotgun at him and he realized it before he was actually shot and he took off running. >> herzog: charles, uh, you lost your brother, jeremy. do you remember the moment when you heard about it?
>> uh, i was in georgia and i got a phone call from my aunt saying for me to call home, something bad had happened. i tried to call. i didn't have no money at the time and my phone wouldn't let me call long distance so i tried to call collect and my grandpa
hung up on me. he didn't wanna, he didn't even wanna pay two dollars to talk to me to tell me my brother was dead. i had to actually get my aunt to call and find out what was going on. and then she called me back and,
uh, my first thought was-- 'cause on the phone she says, "do you know jason burkett?" i said, "yeah." she said, "well, something's happened and your brother's dead." and, uh... [chokes up]
um, my first thought was, you know, jason was just driving, being stupid the way he normally was and, uh, had wrecked. and then she told me no, that jason shot my brother over a car. i just fell out.
i fell out. uh, my uncle came and picked me up and we just went riding around. >> and your father? who, where was he? >> he was in prison. >> how serious? >> um, well, it was the first
time he was in jail for murder. in prison for murder, uh... >> life sentence? >> well, no, he, uh, he was doing his 15-year sentence first and then he was out for about a year and then he went and got a life sentence. and he's just getting
out after that. >> and you flew in for the funeral? >> yeah, i flew in for the funeral. uh, the cops said, uh, i had jumped bond and the cops were there to take me to jail, uh, over my brother's-- can i tell
'em what it was for or... i mean, would it be o.k. to tell 'em, you know, it was a drug possession ? >> so you took the jail time for your brother and you were arrested? >> yeah, at the funeral. the cops came in there.
there was six cops came in and identified me and, uh, told me they were gonna take me to jail right then, and... i asked them, you know, could i at least stay for my brother's funeral? >> and the tear drops, the tattoos, what do
they signify? >> uh, i lost my, my brother and my sister. >> brother murdered. your sister? what happened to her? >> uh, she was coming to my house and she crossed the freeway and she got ran over
by a car. >> tell me about your brother jeremy. can you show us? >> [emotionally] jeremy was, he was... he was just a golden child. um... he was a good kid,
trusted his friends. he would get in trouble just, just to... to have that attention, but he wouldn't do nothing serious. he would never do anything too serious. he got in trouble for making
people laugh, you know, talking during class, you know, stuff like that. he was a very sociable person. everybody loved him and, uh... everybody said that i was the one that was supposed to be dead before i was 21 and not jeremy. >> and you loved him.
>> of course. [emotionally] he was my, he was my best friend. he was my best friend growing up. he's all i had. >> you took care of him. >> [sniffles] i tried.
turns out the only thing i did was hurt him. i introduced him to the people that killed him. [sniffles] he'd tell me all the time it was me and him against the world. [emotionally] i tell my wife the same thing now.
it was just me and him against the world. >> lt. hall: i believe from the time that we got the initial call until they were caught, it was within a week. it was, i believe five to seven days. >> herzog: and you arrived at
the scene where they were apprehended? >> can you describe? was it mayhem? >> yes, sir, it was. there was a truck stop-- actually the truck stop's not there anymore-- but it was at the, kind of the side parking
lot of a truck stop and there was, uh, an abandoned warehouse and then on the other side of that an apartment complex, so the entire scene spanned from that parking lot all the way well into the apartment complex. there was shotgun shells, there was cartridge casings
where they had exchanged fire with the officers that were there. there was wrecked vehicles and i mean, there was just people everywhere. >> herzog: and the police officer was run over? >> yes, sir, his leg.
there was a vehicle wrecked out and all the glass in the vehicle had shattered from the gunshots. burkett and perry both sustained gunshot wounds. i believe jason burkett was shot three times, if i'm not mistaken, and i'm not really certain about michael perry,
but they both had wounds from gunshots and obviously glass cuts and scrapes. >> herzog: so, there was a wild, hot pursuit, and you were in this wild chase. did you actually open fire at them, or...? >> what had happened...
>> herzog: i don't want to be too indiscreet, but i think... >> well, i can tell you, i can tell you, i pled guilty. i've got 10 years done on a 15-year sentence for it, so... >> herzog: i see, yeah. >> we were asleep; we had been drinking the night before.
we were sleeping in the car because we couldn't get to the motel, which was on the other side of a fence. uh, i don't remember this other guy that was in the car with us. i don't know how he got with us, i don't know his name, i don't know anything about him.
uh, michael perry and me were drinking, and somehow this guy got with us that night. i remember getting woke up and getting shot in the car. i looked around; michael perry wasn't next to me, it was some other kid next to me, but perry was in the backseat, and perry
tried to get out of the car in the back, and then he shut the door. i started the truck, and i went to flee, and everybody says, "you shouldn't have ran, you shouldn't have ran." i had just been shot, and the only way for me not to get
shot again was to get out of there, and i wasn't thinking clearly. i didn't know about a murder. i didn't know about what they were looking-- i didn't know the extent-- i didn't know they knew who i was. and when i drove off--
the officer was right in front of me-- i drove to the right, and he shot me through the door right here in my arm. >> herzog: how badly were you wounded? >> i was shot right here... >> herzog: can you show it higher for me?
>> i was shot right here in my wrist. i was shot right here in my hand, my finger. i was shot right here. i was shot right here, and i was shot right here. right here i had a piece of the car door in my side...
>> herzog: still lodged in your side? so how do you get through a metal detector? >> well, it came out afterwards. it came out, it did finally come out in the jail. right here in my collarbone i had a piece of a, uh, glass on
the car door, went inside. [wipers turning slowly] i crashed into a building because i couldn't steer. my blood's all in the truck. they said, "well, your dna's on the gun." my dna's on everything in there. i was shot.
my dna was on michael perry. my dna was on every seat in there from being shot. blood went everywhere. [wipers continue slowly...] whenever i crashed, i jumped out and ran. i ran, i ran in the building. there was cops shooting at the
building where we were crashed into. they were shooting from every direction. the window in the back of the building's like this. you can't get through it. i shot one time with the gun through the window.
i probably shouldn't have done that, but i was trapped, and i was panicked, and i didn't know what to do, and when we got through there, we ran to some apartments, and... you know, i, i carried perry half the way, but, i mean, we got to the apartment.
>> herzog: you, you dealt with it like real tough men. uh, i remember reading somewhere that michael perry shouted, "this is it. put the balls at the walls" or something. "let's bolt. let's fight back." can you remember something
like that? >> burkett: ...i remember reading that they said, "balls to the walls" or you know, something. i don't recall him saying it. he could've said it... >> herzog: too much commotion. too many bullets flying.
>> burkett: i didn't really understand what was happening. all i knew is where we were at, we could not stay there. >> herzog: yeah. >> burkett: and, and he was screaming "balls to the walls," they say. >> herzog: well, um, how can i
say? i, i don't want to go into the details of, uh, of what happened, but, uh, fact is that three people were killed. >> herzog: and it, uh, you deny that you were even close to the scene, or, how, how do you... >> there's no longer a question. there's no longer a question of
my innocence. that question's out the door. the question is what is anyone gonna do about it now. i mean, a, a perfect example is, you're here with these guys. they show up at your hotel room in a car. you're gonna assume that that
car is, you know, these are your friends, so when jason shows up to pick me up in a car, i'm gonna assume it's o.k. you get in it, you get arrested and you come to find out he just murdered someone from that car, you're gonna end up on texas death row.
you're gonna end up right here because you trusted one of these guys to show up and pick you up in a, in a real car that wasn't just stolen. >> herzog: but, uh, trusting in jason was a bad choice. >> absolutely. >> herzog: let's face it,
>> well, you know, i was... >> herzog: some sort of a bad apple, and so, so were you. >> i was homeless... and starving, so it was... where could i get my food? >> herzog: and using drugs. >> no. >> and stealing and... >> he offered me drugs.
he offered me a place to stay. he offered me food, so i chose, i chose that, which i shouldn't have-- i regret it every, uh, every minute now. cherish every minute, huh? cherish every minute. uh, make the most of it 'cause, uh, you know, they can, they
can, they can do you like me. be in the wrong situation at the wrong time, and there's no telling where you end up. you might wanna get out of texas as soon as possible, huh? they might arrest you any, any second, huh. >> i went over to my buddy's
house, there was a guy there, and he wanted to fight me, and, uh, he run up on me as i got out of the truck, and, uh, and i just kind of blew him off, you know what i mean? just go on, man, go on about your business. and, uh, everybody said he, he
was saying he was gonna stab me when i got out of the truck. you know, it kind of pissed me off, so i, i went back, found the dude, and, uh, run up on him, and i was taking off my shirt, and i threw my, threw my shirt up like that, you know, and threw it up over my elbow.
was gonna take it off, and when i did that, he hit me right here with a screwdriver, you know, a screwdriver about that long, and it was a phillips, you know, a little skinny, long screwdrivers and, uh, sunk in to the handle, and after that... >> herzog: all the way
to the handle? >> all the way to the handle. >> herzog: how did it happen? >> man, it's probably, probably about right in there, and it went straight, straight through under my arm, into my chest and, uh, i never went to the hospital or anything...
>> herzog: and what did you feel? you felt, uh... >> yeah, just a-- i felt the, the, you know, the pressure of it when it hit is all i felt, and i kind of jumped back out the way, and, uh, and i looked, and my buddy threw me a knife, and i looked down at the knife
on the ground, and i was like, you know, i'm thinking to myself in my head, you know, i'm going home to my kids today. you know, so i didn't even pick it up, and then, uh, my other buddy come out running by the yard, and, uh, i had to be at work in 30 minutes.
matter of fact, uh, i roo--, i was roofing a house with jason's brother, uh, what is it, chris burkett? and i was roofing a house with him. >> herzog: chris was not in jail at that time. >> nah. >> and you went to hospital?
>> nah. and they was asking me if i needed to go to the hospital or anything, but it just, something like pus and a little bit of blood come out and, you know, i thought i was good. [chuckles] evidently, i guess i am. so i was lucky there.
>> herzog: but you have never been in, in real trouble with the law? >> uh, i've had a felony. that's the only bad, bad one i had. >> herzog: but you're a working man. >> yes, sir. >> herzog: you have a job?
>> yeah, i ain't been in trouble in four years. >> herzog: can i see your hands? >> yeah. >> herzog: when we shook hands, i noticed your calluses. you are working... >> yeah. >> ...in a paint shop? >> yup.
>> herzog: cars. >> herzog: solid work. >> herzog: and the tattoo in here, can i see this? >> yeah, it's a girlfriend. >> herzog: can you show it? >> bailey. >> herzog: you had been with her when you met burkett?
>> herzog: not yet, uh-huh. >> no, i been with her for three years, and i got a 17-month old baby with her. >> herzog: oh, yeah? so you are staying with her? >> herzog: now the tattoo is forever. >> [chuckles] yeah, it's
forever. it just don't come off. >> herzog: and what happens if, uh, the relationship unravels? what happens to bailey? >> guess i'm gonna have to get "bailey sucks" right there. [chuckles] >> herzog: can you talk about
jason burkett? uh, how did you meet him? how did you know him? what do you know about him? >> uh, first time i ever met him, um, he seemed like a pretty cool guy, you know. so we hung out and, uh, i introduced him to a few girls
and everything, and then, uh, we used to go huntin' together. one time he tried to kill me. i introduced him to these girls, and, uh, her dad and him had something going on, i don't know. well, anyway, he thought i wanted to get with that girl
and, uh, come over to another girl's house and, uh, rushed me with a gun. well, i had this girl tell me to come outside, and i was eating supper and, uh, rushed me with a gun, so we fought for about 45 minutes with a gun, uh, to my head in this girl's house.
uh, it was a .22 caliber single-shot pistol. yeah, he held, held it to my head, uh, banged me in the head with it. uh, we were fighting all through the house with the gun till i locked myself in this bedroom, and, uh, he was gonna kick in
the door, so i just opened the door and let him in 'cause i didn't want him to tear this girl's dad's house up. and, uh, after that, we started fighting again, and he pinned me on the bed and when he pulled the trigger... >> herzog: where did the bullet
go? >> nah, it misfired. 'cause the bullet come out the gun and you can tell-- on a .22 bullet there's like, it's just that round flat piece on the bottom. well, if the firing pin ain't long enough, it don't hit it, and, and it don't, it won't go
off, but, uh, it hit it, but i don't know why it didn't go off. >> herzog: you were lucky. >> herzog: very lucky. >> yeah, kind of blacked out there. [chuckles] [spits] but... yeah, real lucky. and then him killing those
people, man. i feel sorry for their families. [birds chirping...] me and my friend big justin was up at a bar one time, and, uh, he come up there with these new cars, him and perry, and, uh, we're like, "man, where'd y'all get these
new cars at?" he's like, "oh, we was holding hands," him and perry was holding hands and, uh, scratched off a lottery ticket together and won, you know, the two cars. well, me and my buddy knew it wasn't right 'cause they're both felons, you know what i mean?
ain't nobody gonna sell them, and ain't neither one got a driver's license, so, you know, and, and the cars were like fully loaded-- cds, k-board and stuff like that in there, and, um, so we knew something, something was up with it. and, uh, he started giving
people joyrides up at the bar. >> jason and michael came up to the bar to show off two new vehicles that they had purchased, and at first, we, nobody really understood. they explained that they had purchased a lottery ticket and that's how they got the money to
buy the cars, and at that time, it started getting a little weird. >> herzog: what didn't sound right about this? >> the amount of the lottery ticket was $4,000. they said they cashed it in a gas station.
that doesn't usually happen. um, the vehicles themselves didn't look like they just came off a car lot. >> herzog: you drove these cars? >> i rode in them, i didn't drive them. yeah, they, jason and michael were kind of giving everybody
test drives, and, um, i rode in both vehicles. the, the red camaro, when i rode in it, they were showing off guns. uh, there was a 12-gauge shotgun and i don't remember the other one, but i did see 'em in the trunk of the red camaro
that night. from what i heard rumors, you know, they were int... initially planning on stealing a car of my roommate at the house i was staying at, and that scared the hell out of me 'cause that could've been me. you know, if he would've decided
to come and get the car in my driveway, where would i be? i've, i've managed to block it. i've managed to try to not deal with it and not think about it. i guess being in the situations that i've been in, be, just from being employed at that bar, i have seen so many
awful things that i don't deal with them, i just kind of put them back. >> herzog: did jason brag about crimes? >> he never bragged to me and my buddy big justin. we didn't even know what happened, and, uh, they was, um,
they come got us from justin's house, the police did, and they took us up there, and they was like, "y'all read the paper?" and i told 'em, well, i couldn't read, and then they didn't believe me, and they looked at my record and found out i can't read, and then, uh, so they read
the paper to me and they told me what he had done. >> herzog: mm-hmm. >> and, uh... >> herzog: do you read now? >> oh, yeah. >> herzog: so late you started to learn how to read. >> yeah, i learned how to read.
>> herzog: wonderful, yes. i find this a great achievement. >> yeah, it was awesome. >> herzog: you are much more connected now. >> herzog: how does it feel not to be able to read? you have to be much smarter than the others to understand the
world anyway. it's, it's kind of tough out there if you can't read, but, i mean, 'cause there ain't always there somebody gonna read it for you. but, uh, i mean, i learned how to read in jail so i could write letters and read the letters,
and, uh, other than that, i don't plan on going back, but i'm glad i learned how to read there. >> herzog: and you are doing good now? staying busy at the paint and body shop. >> herzog: reading?
>> herzog: writing? >> uh, not much writing. uh, a lot of sanding. >> herzog: i'm interested in your relationship with michael perry. how did you two meet? how does this thing happen? >> in 2000, i had a girlfriend,
in 2000. she had a friend named miranda. i ended up going to jail, and miranda, i seen her on the side of the road arguing with michael perry, and i said, i pulled over and i asked her what was going on, and she said, "he's living in my trunk, and i can't get
him, you know, he can't live there no more-- my dad's seen him, my dad got in a fight with him this morning. he can't live there." so he was living in the trunk of a car, and i said, "well, i don't know what to tell you." and she asked me, "can he live
with you?" and at that moment, i told her, "no, he can't live with me." and then i looked at him, and she's like sad and crying, and she said, "please, let him live with you just for a month." this was when we were living in the camper trailer, and i told
him, "you can live with us. get your stuff, put it in my truck and come home." and from that day on, i fed him, uh, gave him money, uh, took care of him. he was like a, like a little brother, kid brother that was pushed on you, and, and he--
when they, i, he's older than me by a few months, but i had to take care of him 'cause he had nothing, he had nobody. little did i know he had a very supportive family. his mom and dad were both supportive. he just didn't wanna
follow rules. he was just like me and didn't wanna follow rules, and that's why he ended up living with me, because they said, "work and you can live with us." he didn't wanna work. >> herzog: and you were sent on an outward bound trip
to florida? >> yeah... >> what was that? >> well, you know, i'm a city boy at heart, you know what i'm saying? i'm really not into the nature and bugs and the weather, you know. so, you know, when they sent me
on a two-week canoe trip... >> which sounds wonderful for me, but-- >> yeah, you know, i like to canoe, but what it, what was, it wasn't the canoeing that was bad, it was that it was in the everglades. i mean, we're seeing
alligators everywhere. now, my question is-- and i didn't even realize that until i got here-- what happened if i would've fell out and got eaten by an alligator? who would've been responsible? you know, did my parents sign some type of waiver, because
there was alligators everywhere. >> well, a young man of 13, you better watch out and handle the alligators well, yes. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. >> but what happened then? you, you didn't, you didn't-- >> well, i think it was on the third or fourth day.
we would canoe until like nighttime and pull in-- i guess they had certain designations marked and sometimes we'd pull in like at midnight. there's bugs; you can reach out and grab a handful of bugs. and then they'd want us to cook dinner and, you know,
i'm like, man, i can't. and one of the things of the program was to teach you immediate-- you know, every action there's a reaction, so immediate consequences to your decisions, and one of the things i learned is that if i don't pay attention to
the lessons... we had these bags for our property and you had to seal them right or they wouldn't be waterproof. well, i didn't listen and it fell in the water and all my stuff got wet, so i didn't have my own tent, i didn't have no
toilet paper anymore and i didn't like that. so basically, i, i was my typical stubborn self and i told them, "you know what, i ain't doing this no more. take me home." >> but you were not attacked by alligators--
>> no-- we were attacked by monkeys though. >> [chuckles] by monkeys? what happened? >> absolutely. monkeys were jumping from one side to the trees on the side we were at and come, trying to come over there and, um, they couldn't figure out where
the monkeys came from, but there was a whole bunch of them. a whole bunch. i wanted to get out and get one, but they said they have diseases, right? >> herzog: so, best case scenario, if you are granted parole in 2041, how old
would you be then? does this ever occur to you? do you want to think about it? >> i'll be 59, 60. i was 19; i have to do 40 years from 19, which will be 59 years old. long time. >> when it came to the phase
after your trial was over for punishment phase, your father showed up in court. can you describe the scene? >> i knew he was coming and i knew what he was gonna testify to, but to hear him testify, it's like, i was born with neuroblastomas.
i had 18 surgeries by the time i was five and i don't know a lot about it because it's something that i try to sh-, shy away from. i knew he was gonna testify to my raising and i was in pain all the time and he'd watch me cry to sleep and...
it was difficult because i seen him cry. i mean, if you ever see my dad, he's six-foot-six, six-foot-seven, 300 pounds, big old guy, uh, tattooed. >> and they brought him in from prison. >> he came in from prison--
>> is he still incarcerated? >> he's right across the street on ellis unit. >> herzog: uh, mr. burkett, how are you doing? >> just, i'm doing fine. doing fine-- little sick. >> how fine? [chuckles] >> little bit sick. [snorts]
you are in here for how many years? >> 40. >> 40 years. >> yes, sir. >> eight felony counts, is that correct? >> yes, sir. >> that's pretty serious. >> and you spent, uh, some time before this 40-year sentence in jail, is that correct?
>> yes, sir. >> yeah. >> i've been in prison five times. >> how many years already? >> um, a two-year sentence, a five-year sentence, a 30-year sentence and then this 40. >> that's a lot. >> yes, sir. >> what went wrong?
>> uh, drugs and alcohol. >> can you explain? >> well, uh, i started using drugs when i was about 13, drinking and drugging and, uh, selling it, manufacturing. some stealing and burglarizing going along with it to support the habit and always end up
back in prison. >> there's one significant moment, uh, when jason, your son, was found guilty for capital murder. >> yes. >> and triple homicide. during the sentencing phase, you appeared in court. can you describe what you said
to the jury? >> well... [clears throat] i explained to 'em what prison life was about and i explained, i explained to 'em that i didn't think killing him was gonna bring back those people or really, you know, do anything to um, correct what happened.
and, uh, i asked the jury to, you know, please, you know, don't kill my son. i asked 'em, i said just please he never had a chance. he didn't have a father. i told 'em that, you know, he did-- i was never there and his mother was a, you know,
single mother with four children and she had handicaps. she was on disability. most of that time she was living on disability and so they really didn't h... they lived off food stamps and, uh, you know, hud housing and that type of thing, and he really, he, um,
really had a real poor life i just asked 'em not to kill my son. it wasn't his fault. i wished i could, i wish that i could take the time, his time. i wish i could, 'cause i feel like... it's my fault. i really do.
uh, i feel like it's-- i'm as much at fault as he is. 'cause if i'd have been there, it quite possibly-- maybe not, but, but it might possibly have been different. he'd have had a better chance. you know, he'd have had a whole lot better chance, if i'd have
been there helping his mother raise him, but i wasn't. the jury got up to leave and the door was right here to my right and as the door closed behind them, i heard two ladies break down. i'm cry-- i'm real emotional and i'm crying through the whole
thing and... but as they went through that door and the door closed, i heard two ladies break down crying. they broke down and then the, when it was all over and his lawyer come told me, he said, i remember the, his words. he said, "you got him."
>> you saved a life. >> he said, he said, "you got him." i said, "what do you mean?" and that's where i, that's what saved-- there was two votes. it was 10 to 2, and there was two votes that voted not to kill him and i think those were the
two ladies right there, that, uh, they're the ones that saved his life, and, uh... >> but you can be proud of this moment. i had some help, too. god helped me. he did. i asked god to help me and i
think he did. i didn't deserve any help for him. he may not deserve the help, but we got it from someplace, so... >> the hardest part was to look at him, for him to look at me and i seen that he was sincere,
that he really was sorry for, you know, what he had done throughout my whole childhood and he had been in prison. i don't blame him for it, but i seen right there that he understood that it did affect us and i cried that one day, that was it, through the
whole trial. even after conviction, the only thing that hurt me was my dad testifying. >> whenever i went back and testified, uh, his brother went back and testified, too. his brother was in prison-- chris-- and we, uh, me and chris
went, came back to the diagnostics together and then-- and i'm embarrassed, but all of three of us, we had thanksgiving together. chr... me and chris and jason over at the diagnostics unit. you know and they, uh, they think that's kind of cool,
but as a father, i thought that was pretty embarrassing to be sitting there in prison with my sons. >> all of them incarcerated. and then me and jason went on over to the next place together, handcuffed together in the bus, and that's something that i
never in my life would ever have dreamed, uh, dreamed of that would've happened that that same little baby that was, you know, you had to hold him down to take bone marrow tests out of, the same little six-pound baby. >> describe the feeling to me when you are handcuffed together
with your own son in the same bus. >> hmm. >> can you describe that? >> no, not really. it, it's, uh-- >> try to describe it for us. >> [exhales] well... i don't know, i just felt like a total failure, total failure
as a father. >> and you could feel his hand, can't you? >> yes. yeah, we were handcuffed to this hand and his right hand and we were sitting there and i was just, it was just total failure. that's what i felt like. i felt like crap, you know,
and i used a different word to the jury and... and that's what i meant. you know, he had trash for a, for a father and then here i was, sitting with my baby son on a prison bus and, uh, i mean, i don't think it, i don't think it gets much lower than that,
you know? it just don't. [sniffles] knowing me or him, neither one'll ever, you know, get out again and... i just got a three-year set off again, uh, about a week ago, so... me or him will never
get out again. >> and will he ever get out again? >> i don't think so. he comes up for parole the first time in, uh, 1942, for the first time. >> 40 years after his conviction.
>> yes, sir-- 1941, i'm sorry. yes, sir. >> yeah, 2041. you're a century back. >> yes. >> behind. [chuckles] >> 19-- yeah, 2041. i'm sorry. >> well, doesn't matter. it's, uh, time must be--
>> a long time. >> time is probably different for you in here. >> yes, sir. >> lt. hall: this is actually the vehicle that was in sandra stotler's garage. this was the vehicle that uh, michael perry and jason burkett was after.
three people died for this car. a car that was in their possession for less than 72 hours, i believe. within a couple of years, i mean, this vehicle was just trashed-- the inside of it-- because there was actually a tree that had rooted and it come
up through the center of it and it tore the floorboard up and, uh, whenever we actually had to move it over to this lot, it was a little bit difficult because of that. >> herzog: a tree grew inside of it. >> a tree grew up from the bottom up into...
up into the car. >> herzog: why did they die? >> [scoffs] i ask myself that question every day. i mean, for a vehicle? you know, i don't know. people die every day over giving people a dirty look or, you know, two dollars.
people rob each other and i don't know why they died. the greed of these two boys. i don't know, i don't, i don't have an answer. >> can you speak about the family of victims? nobody seems to address that side.
>> i, i don't-- >> how do you live with all this? >> [sighs] i didn't for a while. i'm starting to live again, but, um, basically i just shut down. um, montgomery county has a victims assistance program...
but when you, when your whole family's ripped from you, you know, you're kind of like, what's the point? what's the point of living anymore? i don't have a family to share it with. and i know i have to live for my
children, to raise my children. i don't want them to have a miserable wife or have a depressed mother all the time. um, but for about four years i didn't go anywhere. i stayed in the house, took the phone out of the home. i don't like to talk to people.
i figure, if i don't get close to anybody, i don't, you know, i won't get hurt again. i just, i just shut down, really. my grandmother shut down. our lives are empty, very empty. very empty. that's adam.
that was his six-, his... he was 16 there. that was his last school picture. [emotionally] my brother, my brother was my best friend. he was, he was only 16. um, it is true that he is not my real brother.
my sister... got pregnant when she was 16 and my parents adopted him and they were actually out of town the day he was born, so i was the first one to hold him. and, um, i just, i had this feeling his whole life that something was gonna happen to
him and i remember calling my mother and saying, you know, "what's adam doing? where's adam? you need to make sure, y'all just moved up to ohio; you need to make sure you're watching him." and my mom's like, "i've raised
five children; i can take care of him." and when he hit 16, i knew he was, he was good, he was safe, he was a man, he'd be able to take care of himself now. he was such a great kid. he was in love for the first time in his life, and...
and, um, one... one thing that sticks out... for me, my mom always protected me. one thing that i remember, i was supposed to get married, uh, well, i did get married, september 16th, 1995, but my dad, mel, he was a preacher and he was supposed to marry me
and kenneth. he died six months before the wedding. he was hit by a train, him and my older brother and um, and a family dog. and, uh, so we got-- i refused to get married in a church, so we got married on the boat
in lake conroe. right as i was walking out the, to, walking out the door to go down the aisle, my mother pinned my dad's wedding ring inside my dress right over my heart and she said, "i didn't want your dad to miss this." and, you know, that just--
>> you loved her. >> [tearfully] yes, and i know she was in so much pain that day, but she hid it because i was so happy. she hid her pain for me and, you know, she, she just... made it through the day. i just miss 'em all.
our family's just so incomplete, so incomplete. you know, sometimes my kids'll ask me things and i'll go, "i don't know." i wonder what my mom-- you know, there's things at all times of day and night i wanna call and ask her.
it took me forever to realize she was really gone 'cause i would wanna pick up the phone and call her and... >> is this why you got rid of the phone? >> yes. i did not want another phone call telling me somebody else
in my family had died. i can't handle those phone calls anymore. i couldn't handle 'em anymore, so i just cut myself off from i can't, i can't have a phone on. i just don't like to hear the phone ring anymore 'cause all it
ever brought me was bad news. >> the worst. >> the worst. >> not just bad, yeah. you had to, to face it. well, you know, it's just, i mean, not only did i lose my mother and my father and my brother to tragic circumstances. i mean, my grandfather had a
stroke, my uncle hung himself, my other uncle had a heroin overdose, my stepbrother shot himself 'cause he had pancreatic cancer, my real father died in his sleep. all of this was in six years, a six-year period. i lost everyone in my family,
everybody. >> herzog: mr. burkett, if you close the eyes and you think about a different life and it could start all over, how would you raise the children? >> well... it's hard to answer something that you've never done.
and, you know, embarrassing, embarrassing to say that, but i know what-- i would like, i would like to them have... did... what i... i had a scholarship to the university of texas in 1973 in football and i quit school in my senior year, quit
football and quit school and lost that, and i wish i could go back to right there. >> yes, go back to right there. now you have the children. >> then i had the children and i would have had a-- i would have done everything in my power to help them finish school
like i didn't. and i always tell them, "don't be like me." well, i wish, i wished i would've been something they could've been and i wished they could've finished school. i wish we could've played baseball like i did when i was
little... in little league. i wished that we could've played baseball. two of them did for like, one time. baseball and i wished i could've went to their football games. and i raised a steer in school for f.f.a.
i wish they could've did that. we lived in the country. that's what i wish we could go back, all of us, and go to school events. i got to watch one of my sons play the horn one time in school and that's the stuff that i remember.
that's the good stuff. and this all wouldn't have happened. >> i wanna say this on the record. i'm not saying that my husband was a boy scout. i'm not saying that jason burkett did absolutely, had no
knowledge and was like, selling cookies or raising money for camp when that happened. i'm saying that jason did not kill one, two or three people. sandra, jeremy and adam were not killed by jason. >> herzog: and you asked, uh, your husband, you asked jason
point blank, "can you tell me what happened?" because you wanted to make sure. what did you ask him? >> i've asked jason multiple times to tell me everything that i need to know. i said, "jason..." jason doesn't have a whole lot
of money, so we do most of his stuff pro se-- which is where we file it ourselves-- and me and his father have pretty much done his appeal. and i'm always asking him, "i need to know everything you can tell me to help you get home."
and that's basically how we start our conversations and jason will recall things and, you know, more and more it's like been a snowball that i've picked up exactly what i think happened. and you are told he was innocent. >> yes.
>> and you do believe him. >> i do believe him. i, like i said, i believe that jason had involvement. i don't believe he killed three people. i wrote jason for maybe two years before i went to meet him, because really i could do most
of the stuff through the mail and one day i was talking to his mother and she said something to the effect of, "you'll never guess what jason said to me today." and i said, "what?" and she said, "he told me that he was in love with you."
and i said, "that's crazy." and i remember-- to give you like, the pre-story-- i was with my best friend and when i hung up i said-- my best friend, her name's kat-- i was like, "kat, jason burkett's in love with me." she goes, "that's probably
pretty good, 'cause you're in love with him, too." and i said, "what are you talking about? i'd be an idiot," you know? and she said, "dude, when is the last time you've been on a date? when's the last time you haven't spent a saturday night with
jason burkett's court paperwork?" i was like, "hey, that's not nice." but i ended up driving-- i lived in nebraska at the time-- i ended up driving from omaha to abilene because i wanted him to tell me himself and he was at
the robertson unit. >> you were two days and two nights driving? i drove-- it seemed like endless, too-- i drove and i got there and i remember i just asked him, like, that was the first thing i said. i was like, "hi."
we've never seen each other in our lives, but, "hi, your mom told me that you're in love with me." but i didn't say it; i wanted to be coy, so i said, "your mom told me you told her something in visit." i said, "what'd you tell her?
and he said, "i need stamps?" and i was like, "i wouldn't be in abilene 'cause you need stamps, right? what are you, don't play games and he goes, "oh, that part where i said i was in love and then i dropped the phone 'cause i was nervous and i
didn't know what to say and i kind of fumbled through that whole visit because i didn't immediately go, "i love you, too." it wasn't, you know, like a movie. i was very nervous. i'm not that girl that falls
in love with an inmate. and i was like, o.k., i'm just gonna be cool with it and then when i left, the day i met jason, there was a rainbow-- and i'm not, this is true, it's in our letters-- there was a rainbow that went from one gate, side of the gate to the
other side of the gate and i thought that was the most miraculous sign that this is, this is the boy that i'm supposed to be with and this is, he is innocent because how many times do you see a whole rainbow? and we saw a whole rainbow--
and my friend was with me; he saw the rainbow, too, i have a witness-- and when jason, when i got home, i had a letter waiting for me and he said, "did you see the rainbow?" >> at the gates of the prison. >> it went from one side, my side on the outside to the
inside to him. >> i believe in me. you know, i know what happened back in 2001. i know that i wasn't a part of it and i believe strongly in my faith, in my attorneys and in the outcome, but at the same time i don't even recognize
these walls. i don't pay attention to this, because if you do you're gonna lose your mind-- you're gonna, you're gonna go, you're gonna, you're gonna lose your mind. recently another guy just killed himself the other day and, um, he left a note saying that
"y'all have to live around all this craziness, and i'm gone," and, um, that's because he was focusing on it, but i don't. i don't focus on it. you know, i just, i just... distract myself. i stay busy, i work on my case. i have a great family, a lot of
supporters that help me, so, um, i have enough distractions. if i didn't have enough distractions, i might be in a different position, huh? >> herzog: how does time occur to you now in your situation? >> wow, that's a good... it really varies, but, you know,
because like, i'll forget. i'll literally forget and then i'll look at my calendar or i'll hear someone say something and i'm like, "man," and i'll sit back and i'll just stare at the wall and i'll be like, man, eight days, seven days, six days or
whatever, and it's like, it's just, i must not be comprehending the fact that it's that close, because, you know, it's hard for me to say, you know what, like i talk to people, and you know, in eight days, these people wanna murder me.
and it's just something that, it's hard for me to, hard for me to believe that the state of texas wants to murder me in eight days. >> and worst-case scenario, you know exactly what is going to happen on july 1st? >> yeah, the execution. mm-hmm.
>> you will be transported to huntsville? >> right, the walls unit. >> that's a death house? >> and you will be checked by a medical examiner? >> i don't... no, no. no medical people can be involved.
>> i think they have to check you that are you fit to be executed. it's one of these-- >> i've never heard that, but it might be. it might be. >> i think it's one of these absurdities.
if you are unconscious, for example, you cannot be executed. >> oh? [chuckles] oh yeah? >> or if you are stark mad or something, they would not execute you. >> yeah, that is true.
that is true. >> or if you are bleeding from a gunshot wound, they would not put you onto the gurney. >> you're right. they got to treat me first and then kill me, huh? >> probably, yes, yeah. >> [chuckles] that's kind of
crazy to think about, right? but, uh... yeah, i just, i just can't allow myself to think, i can't even picture myself laying on a gurney, but if it happens, i'll have to deal with it, huh? you know, i'll have to deal with it and i'll be able
to watch over my mom from heaven, with a clear conscience and be at peace. you know, uh, like i said, for a long time my life has been unhappy, so finally i can find me some peace, huh? >> and you are at peace with yourself. >> now.
>> mm-hmm-- took a long time. >> yes, it absolutely did. took a long time to realize what a man was. i was out there acting like a child. i acted like a child when i got in here at first, but, uh, i'm confident in who i am now.
>> michael perry, i wish you all the best. >> yes, thank you. i don't know what's gonna happen, huh? we're gonna see. we're gonna find out. i'll find out on monday. >> they knew what i was telling
them was gonna be the truth. i mean, i'm not gonna tell you anything that... i'm gonna tell you everything that's gonna happen back here. four o'clock, a guy's gonna come in here and they're gonna fingerprint you. shortly after that, we're gonna
allow you to take a shower and then we're gonna put you in free world clothes, it's a, let you dress in free world clothes. free world clothes would be clothes you and i would wear. five, six o'clock, whatever your request for the last meal, they'll bring it in and, um,
you'll sit there and eat your last meal, you know? during that time, if you need anything else, just ask. you know, you need some more juice, punch or whatever else we got back here, just ask. you know, and they, you know, sometimes they had strange
requests. you know, within reason, i'm gonna get it for you. >> herzog: give me one of those requests. >> oh, one, "man, i'd sure like to smoke a doobie right now." well, that's not gonna happen, the guy with the key, he opens
the door, swings the door open. there's another correctional officer behind him and another one behind me. so soon as he does, he follows me in, then the other correctional officers follow right in behind him. so there'll be two in front of,
in front of the inmate and then the other three right behind him. i tell him jump up on the gurney, which then i automatic-- >> it's only a few steps from the cell. >> [sighs] i would say no more than 10 steps, if that much.
i would immediately go around to the gurney 'cause i always took care of the left leg. so soon as he laid down, i took the other person who was in front with me would take care of the right. the three that fell in behind, one would take care of the right
arm, the other one would take care of the left arm and the other one would be there in case the inmate-- once he lays down, if he had a response to try to get back up-- his job was to hold his shoulders down. you know, you're not-- once you're up there,
you're up there, you know? within that time, us four people would have him done-- probably within about 15 seconds he'd be strapped down, that quick, 'cause we all knew exactly where our straps were and what we were supposed to do. the time to do the process.
we trained on it. it's the last time you're gonna see-- i'm gonna see him with his eyes open, because after the execution's done and the process went and then they called the doctor in to pronounce him dead, uh, and everybody leaves, my job begins again because i
have to go back in there and that's al... also kind of difficult because here you sit with this individual eight or 10 hours, all day long and now the last thing you're doing is removing those straps. those straps have to be removed
and put 'em on another gurney for the funeral home. and then, you thought, you didn't think about none of this while you're doing this, the procedure. you know, none of this, um, you don't keep the, you don't put those emotions out there.
you do... you do the job. you go home. >> you did how many executions, roughly? >> it was over 125. 120-- it was somewhere over 120. it was a bunch. we got to the point to where especially after i-- i think i
promoted to captain in '90-- we were doing two a week... and that was getting tiresome. >> and what happened to you then? >> [clears throat] i... back when they, when they brought in karla faye, i stayed
back there with her. now, definitely that was the first female that we were fixing to execute. i remember one thing so vividly, that it was an hour before and i was standing there and the chaplain was standing there and she looked at me and she goes,
"thank you, captain allen, for everything you've done." i said, "you're welcome." you know, that's all i could say, you know? what else can, what else am i gonna say? i'm fixing to strap you down in another hour.
uh, which we went, procedure and everything went just the way it was supposed to, you know? she was pronounced dead. i went back in there and i took the gurn-- took the straps off, put her-- you know, the gurney and that stuff-- we locked everything up,
went about our business and everything was fine. i had a little shop in the back. it was six o'clock and the news come on over the radio and it started again and for some reason, just out of the blue i-- hearing it, it triggered me seeing her hurt and i
started shaking. i go, what's wrong? and then-- >> how badly did you shake? >> it was, it was a shake. it was a shake like a, uh, i couldn't-- why am i shaking? and then i could see my-- i was sweating and in tears also...
and this, this is hurtin'. i remembered her-- this was two days afterwards-- i remembered her execution. hers was no different than anybody else, but it was hers. and then i started actually visualizing the other inmates as-- you asked me "did you look
in their eyes when they're..." i could see 'em. i could actually see 'em in the holding cell again, one right after another and it seemed like... there was just... my wife goes, "what's wrong and i don't know.
i need to talk to somebody and the first person i could think of to call was carroll, chaplain pickett, and he come over to the house and we sat in that old swing and i started coming down, and i-- he says, "what's wrong?" and i told him and then i looked
at carroll and i said, "i can't do it no more. that's it. i'm done. i can't, i can't go back there anymore." >> could it be that, uh, you thought that this was not yourself, but maybe it was your
real self that moment? >> that's a good possibility. >> what's really deep inside of you... >> yes. >> came out. >> that's a good, that's very-- i mean, that's, i mean from that point on, i mean, i've had a different outlook in life.
if executions was the law, then i was gonna make sure that it was done professionally, with integrity. after karla-- and i was a... pro capital punishment. after karla faye and after all this, until this day, 11 years later...
no, sir. i don't-- nobody has the right to take another life. i don't care if it's the law. and it's so easy to change the law. >> i, i don't want to sound, uh, like a, a evil person or-- but i am so glad i went
to the execution-- i really am. i fought with my, with myself about going. i reserved this, the, uh, seat so i could be there, but, um, i'm glad i went. i'm really glad i went. it, it really did something to me.
>> herzog: yeah, what did it do? >> i don't, i don't know what, i don't know what happened, but i, immediately after the execution, i felt like a, that saying "a huge weight had been lifted"? i actually could take a deep breath.
um, my heart didn't ache as much. you know, i remember walking in and thinking, "this looks like a boy." i had built this huge monster, evil, you know, murdering monster in my head, and he was just a boy.
he was just a boy lying on that gurney. [lock clicks] when i walked in, he looked at me, and, uh, he looked away and he did a double take. same thing jason burkett did in court. i look like my mom.
i look a lot like my mother. >> herzog: and what did he say? >> he forgave us. he forgave us. yeah. and i was upset when i walked in, i was crying, uh, you know, our whole, my whole family. we, we didn't wanna see
someone die, you know? no one should have to do, go through that, but we were there for my mother, you know, and my brother, and, uh, we were crying, and when he said he forgave us... >> herzog: for what? >> for the atrocity
brought against him. and then he said he's ready to go. i heard his mother cry... and they gave him the injection. he gasped for air four times. i watched his shirt thump, you know, his heart beating on his shirt.
i watched it till it stopped, and it stopped at 6:14. one tear fell down his eye. one tear. and he was gone. and it was over. >> herzog: and the prospect of someone who is gonna be locked away for life without parole,
would that satisfy your... >> definitely. >> herzog: yes. >> definitely. >> herzog: so it would be definitely an alternative, because death penalty, uh, sounds a little bit too much like old testament, the wrath of god.
>> an eye for an eye. >> herzog: and jesus, uh, probably would not have been an advocate of capital punishment. >> probably not, probably not. but some people just don't deserve to live. >> can i say something? >> herzog: please.
>> i know on july the 1st is when they, they, uh, executed michael, and, and, uh, i, i knew michael pretty well. >> and, and i kept up with, i have every kind of clipping and web site thing i have on him and jason. i have, like, a whole, like,
a box full, so i, i know as much about him as, as anybody. and mi-, and mi-, michael wa-, was just, just like jason. they were both young wha-, and wha-, whatever they did or didn't do, i don't know, i was not there. but michael was just a, was, was
just a, a young, a young kid, and, and, and, um, i know he, i know when they executed him, i know how he-, i know his last words and everything else, and, and, and, um, and i know, i know, um, by executing michael, uh, i don't think it brought any of those people back
and i don't think it deterred anything. i, i don't think it deterred anybody out there. as much publicized as it was, it did, did not deter anything, and i really do not believe that it solved anything by taking another life, and it, it hurt
me, uh, when he, when, when it come time for his execution, i knew it was gonna be about 6:00, at 6 or s-, s-, usually a few minutes after 6 p.m., and i was on my knees at my bunk, and, and, in mi-, for michael, praying for michael, and, and it, a feeling
come over me a-, at, uh, bu-, right bu-, about ten-, five or 10 minutes after six, a feeling come over me that's har-, very, very hard to explain. it was like i felt the loss of, of what used to be my son's best friend. i felt, i felt that.
i felt that pain whenever they killed him. but i just wish those fam-, the family members would know that, how much that i, uh, i hurt for their loss. that's very important, and michael never, never-- that's what upset them, 'cause
michael never tried to reach out to 'em. i wished i could and say i'm sorry. >> herzog: melyssa, let me address one thing. among death row inmates, there's such a phenomenon like, uh, death row groupies,
the same way, uh, rock stars have groupies, and you have seen women like that. >> i have seen women like that, in fairness. i also have seen women who are married to death row inmates in truly committed relationships that i believe are not
disingenuous and i believe come from their heart. you know, some people are just supposed to be together, whether there's a cage and a lawman between you-- i believe that. i mean, i do believe that there's a fair amount of women who want attention, who want
media coverage, who seek out infamous men. i mean, like, scott peterson gets a hundred letters a day on death row in california. that's ridiculous. >> herzog: he murdered his pregnant wife. >> yes. >> herzog: is that
correct, that case? yeah, a good-looking man. >> good-looking man. >> herzog: however, jason is not an ugly man, either. describe him to us, please. >> like, physically? >> herzog: yes. you only have touched his hand.
describe his hands to us. >> they're a lot bigger than mine, i'll start there. i have really tiny hands. >> herzog: describe... >> he always, jason, he holds hands funny, and he always holds my hand kind of like that as opposed to intertwined, so he
holds on to me, and i just know that his hands are massive... [chuckles] because he wears a ring size 11. our wedding rings, it's an 11.5 and i wear a 4, so he can totally cup my hand. >> herzog: were you allowed to touch each other?
hug each other? exchange rings? >> no. i still can't get a ring. >> herzog: and, uh, you were separated by a glass wall, or... >> just like this right here, except for we had a phone, and it was solid right here,
solid glass. >> herzog: but when she comes for visits, are you allowed to hug her? >> i am now. after we married, i'm allowed to hug her, i'm allowed to give her a kiss before and after visit. >> we're allowed to hold hands
on the table and have contact and speak. >> herzog: but of course, of course with a guard present. >> as close as you are to me. >> herzog: and you would like to have children. >> herzog: how would that happen?
how, what sort of option is there? >> i want 50 children. she wants two, so i mean we have to work on this. [herzog laughs] i want children for different reasons. uh, i want children with her specifically because i love her,
i wanna be with her, i wanna give her something that she'll always have with me. >> herzog: i'm under the impression seeing you now that you became pregnant only a few days after we met your husband? >> um, you guys met him on the 18th of october?
>> i think so, yeah, something like that. >> yeah, i believe my baby was made on the 23rd of october, approximately. >> right after we saw your husband. >> 23rd or 24th. >> you... went into action.
>> [chuckles] so to speak. >> and the father of the baby is... your husband. >> legally, will be jason, yes. >> and it is jason's biologically, legally... >> i can't say that. >> ...in every single sense. since you are not allowed to do
more than touching hands, how do you become pregnant? there's a mystery. >> yeah, it's kind of a mystery. um, there's people involved that i don't wanna mention. >> no, we will not, uh, im-, imply any, anyone, but, uh, i have to speculate, uh--
is there such a thing like contraband entering prisons like, let's say drugs, cell phones, uh, illegal messages. there seems to be something the other way round. contraband from the prison to the outside and you became pregnant.
>> well, we... >> can we formulate it like this? >> we, we prefer to say that i was artificially inseminated. >> herzog: do you have a name for the boy? >> um, well, we've, we came up with easton, easton aaron.
>> herzog: can you show us? i think there's a face. can you point it out? >> it's right there. if you actually can see up close enough, you can tell my baby has my strong jaw. ...you live on through your children, and the love that you
put into them projects to the world. my parents are both gone, and i had this big hole in my heart, and i realized that what you do is you take all of that love and you give it back. i mean, nothing else matters. i actually have this shirt
tacked up on my wall. >> herzog: can i see the shirt? can you turn it around? >> i just make sure and... somebody told me about the, the "live your dash," and that's really, after all this... that i went through and quit and everything
that i, i heard the stories telling me, "live your dash. how do you, how are you gonna live your dash?" and i didn't understand-- what are you talking about "dash"? and he said, "it's on your tombstone. you got your birth date and you
got the day that you decease, and you got that little dash in the middle. that's your life right there. that's your, that's everything between from the time you're born till the time you die. how are you gonna live your dash?"
and that's where i'm at now. i'm gonna live my dash and make sure that everything... try to make everything right for the family, everybody. hold still and watch the birds. and you, you... once you get up in, into your life like that and once you're feel good about
your life, you unders-, you do start watching what the birds do, you know, what the ducks are doing, like the hummingbirds. wow, there are so many of 'em. [music ends]
